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uBhejane and Government Regulation of Traditional Medicines - SAfm: ?“The After8 Debate?” with John Perlman
25 April 2006. Transcribed by Judith King, HIVAN.
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The following is a transcription of "The After8 Debate", as broadcast on SAfm on 25 April 2006.
JP: [Introduction] People living with HIV/AIDS are desperate to find some sort of cure, and so they look wherever they can - in many cases, to anyone who says they can possibly help them. There?’s been much talk, for example, that in Limpopo Province, some people are making a lot of money selling mopani worms, claiming that this can make a difference to someone who?’s affected by HIV/AIDS. Down in KwaZulu-Natal, there?’s a considerable debate about something called uBhejane, which is a mixture of more than 80 herbs, being offered to people with HIV/AIDS. It raises some broader questions, such as this: should government regulation of purported AIDS remedies be tougher?
Welcome to the After8 Debate: we?’d like to get your views on this. (Also visit our website on www.sabcnews.com ?– click on the ?“Discussion Forums?” to read online contributions). Joining us first of all from KwaZulu-Natal is Mr Siza Ngcobo, the business partner and advisor to the producer of uBhejane, who is Zeblon Gwala. Professor Nceba Nqcaleni is the Deputy Dean at the Nelson Mandela School of Medicine at the University of KwaZulu-Natal. Spokesperson from the Ministry of Health is Sibani Mngadi from Pretoria.
Mr Ngcobo, let?’s start by asking you this question; what do you claim that uBhejane can do for someone who has HIV/AIDS?
SN: uBhejane is a concoction which comprises of 89 herbs. At the moment, it needs to be taken as a supplement, because research and investigations around uBhejane are still going on; I think Dr Nqcualeni is going to elaborate on that. It is a potential solution to the virus which we all know as HIV, and AIDS; Professor Vilakazi refers to us basing our purportment in the version that uBhejane is a solution in that we have living evidence of that ?– people have been sick, they?’ve consumed uBhejane and out of that consumption, they?’ve got better.
JP: Got better in what way?
SN: From our perspective, or in our tradition, if one gets sick, is bedridden, one consumes muti or a drug, then you get better and you go back to work. Of course, we are still in the process of finalising all the research as to what exactly it is that uBhejane does. But we have lots of people who have got better and gone back to work.
JN: Let me ask you this: in some newspaper reports, Mr Gwala is quoted as making much more specific claims than this in regard to HIV/AIDS, and I want to quote you one bit. He talks about the fact that when you take uBhejane, you need to get two bottles; the cost is R342, the one has a blue lid, the other has a white lid. Is that correct?
SN: That?’s the nail on the head.
JP: Okay, they?’re two-litre plastic milk-bottles, and so it?’s R342 for the four litres. You take that for two weeks, and then you use the blue lid bottles. Can you confirm or clarify the claims that he makes ?– as he says in this article ?– the one with the white lid is for improving the CD4 count, and the one with the blue lid is for bringing down the viral load. Now if you can improve the CD4 count and bring down the viral load, you?’re making very specific claims about dealing with HIV/AIDS. Does uBhejane do that ?– can you prove it?
SN: Well, what we?’ve got are people who have gone to do the tests at independent companies. Once they do their tests, they get reports on their sickness. They get first, second, third tests and so on. Once people start consuming uBhejane, we?’ve realised that the CD4 count comes up, and the viral load comes down.
JP: Now where is this research material, and would you make it available to the Medicines Control Council or to anyone else who looks at these things? Of course, traditional healers have their own body and we have regulation in that area, but where is this evidence? Is it documented?
SN: Without mentioning names of organisations at this juncture, and I repeat ?– at this juncture ?– we are going to reveal all the people that are helping us in trying to verify what we are seeing.
JP: Let?’s bring Professor Nqcaleni in at this point. If you were to do tests to establish that a CD4 count is up and the viral load is down, what?’s involved in those tests?
NN: John, it?’s a very basic test in the laboratory. You?’d need to take blood from patients ?– normally you?’d need to get a baseline, that is, before they take the product, and then you follow up once they take the product and also follow up at different intervals, maybe a month, three months, six months [afterwards].
JP: You were asked to have a look at uBhejane, you are then quoted to some degree as saying you were unhappy about ?“mischievous media reports?” with regard to uBhejane. Tell us what you looked at in regard to uBhejane and what you found, and then perhaps you may want to stress what you didn?’t find.
NN:Our protocol really involves doing test tube studies at the beginning, because the tests on humans are much more costly. We set up a panel of laboratory studies that allow us in a more cost-effective manner to establish whether there is merit in proceeding to studying the product on humans. Now this process, for us, is still not completed, and that?’s why we were concerned when we were finding people ?“quoting?” us in newspapers for what we have not completed. So we did a panel of safety studies - toxicity assays - and then we did a panel of [studies on] bacterial infections normally associated with HIV/AIDS, and the last stage would be the test as to whether the product has any anti-viral properties or immune-stimulating functions.
JP: I want to quote something put out by Dr Herbert Vilakazi, who is involved in the promotion of uBhejane, who?’s also acting as an advisor to the Premier of KwaZulu-Natal on HIV/AIDS, he says: ?“Studies by MEDUNSA, by the Nelson Mandela Medical School of the University of KwaZulu-Natal as well as the findings of the Global Clinical and Viral Laboratory located in Durban, seem to indicate that we may well be having in our hands the most decisive and effective treatment of HIV/AIDS available anywhere in the world, in the form of uBhejane.?” Would the Nelson Mandela Medical School and yourself endorse that?
NN: We don?’t endorse that view. That?’s why we feel that there?’s misleading reporting in the case of our work. Firstly, the preliminary report was more to give Mr Gwala an update of where we are ?– it was never meant for the public. We were surprised when we learnt this was being done by Professor Vilakazi. We wanted to give him an update of where things are and also set him the milestones of what more we?’d need to do and then once finished, we?’d then decide on whether we have data efficient enough for us to submit to an Ethics Committee for a clinical trial.
The full transcript can be accessed on the righthand side of this page. |
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